Curse

Necromas · Jun 18, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Consider yourselves lucky Luxons, when FA is a zaishen quest is the only time I can get 5 f***ing matches in a row where I'm the only healer and most of the team doesn't even know how the area works.

Luxons, with their newb crushing siege turtles, definitely have the advantage when most players on both sides are either RoJ spammers or using generic damage builds with no knowledge of strategy. Sure I can hold a gate on my own unless I'm badly overwhelmed or a chunk runner lets some monk hate through the gate, but what's the point if I can't defend 2 sides at once or solo heal gunther against 8 people at once?

Now when I have one or two real monks/rits on my team (that recognize the NPCs are important), we generally win, but that isn't happening nearly as often as this thread would imply, at least not for me.

Michael805 · Jun 19, 2009, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

Consider yourselves lucky Luxons, when FA is a zaishen quest is the only time I can get 5 f***ing matches in a row where I'm the only healer and most of the team doesn't even know how the area works.

I had the same problem, to an extent, today. I would be either the only healer, or the team would have 3+ healers.
In most of the games I was the only healer, we usually lost too. Not because of the lack of heals, as one might imagine, but due to lack of damage.
These Defy Pain tanks and Illusionary Weapon mesmers seriously need to think about what they're doing. It's like they get carried in every team they're in, but once they get a match that it would help if they didn't have terrible builds they can't figure out why we're losing.

Omgopolis · Jun 19, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I normally play monk for the Kurzick side, and while i win nearly 100% of the time, there are many close wins with the Luxons nearly killing Gunther repeatedly while I spam prots and infuse him from time to time.

I did play a few games as a luxon for that primary quest in factions though, and I took a nuker with well of the profane. Won 4 games in a row with plenty of time to spare, even when the kurzicks had 2-3 monks each game.

I always thought it was easier for Luxons with the super turtles tbh, but that's probably because all the Kurzick players I get stuck with never repair gates and try to kill protted turtles without targetting squishy monks and nukers first. It seems pretty balanced to me most of the time, but if Kurzicks played smarter their advantage would probably be more obvious.

rusty89 · Jun 19, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

FA isn't balanced. Kurzicks have the advantage. Good Kurzick team>Good Luxon team and a Bad Kurzick team>Bad Luxon team so it takes a Good Luxon team>Bad Kurzick team to win. But FA is not going to get fixed so I just ignore the place, and like others have said Z quests are easy enough to skip.

itznitro · Jun 19, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

This is where I think your whole argument is flawed. If nobody can kill the turtles, the luxons just advance. Once they reach the inner circle it's just gg. It's an illusion 8 monks can hold the pressure and keep the gatekeepers and Gunther alive like it's nothing. Turtles keep on bombarding while the 8 luxon players harass the monks. Sooner or later, one or two will go down, leading up to a chain reaction.

Like with everything in this game, you achieve more playing offensively. If I see more than 2-3 monks in a Kurick team I joined, I know we will have a very hard time. The best situation is one monk at each gate, so only 2 monks max in a kurzick team. The other extreme situation is when you start out with no monks at all on Kurzick side which means insta win for Luxons.

Pierson wins this thread.

Upier, you say that the kurzicks merely need to OFFER themselves as monks in order to provide the best chance of winning (by buffing their defense and getting rid of all the offensive players) However you disregard the fact that a team of 5+ monks will NOT necessarily be able to hold out until God's Vengeance completes...

It's one of the most common fundamentals of GvG and higher level play, and you are forgetting it. Defense consists of the ACTIVE role (monks) that you are focusing on, and also consists of the PASSIVE mitigating effects of various other professions (Blinds, Snares, Debuff Hexes). If the active aspect of defense (8 monks) were the only thing needed to keep a team alive, then your argument would suffice. However, as it stands, 8 RANDOMLY designed monks (all bringing a mix of small prots and heals) would not hold out versus a full luxon assault.

byteme! · Jun 19, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by itznitro

Pierson wins this thread.

Upier, you say that the kurzicks merely need to OFFER themselves as monks in order to provide the best chance of winning (by buffing their defense and getting rid of all the offensive players) However you disregard the fact that a team of 5+ monks will NOT necessarily be able to hold out until God's Vengeance completes...

It's one of the most common fundamentals of GvG and higher level play, and you are forgetting it. Defense consists of the ACTIVE role (monks) that you are focusing on, and also consists of the PASSIVE mitigating effects of various other professions (Blinds, Snares, Debuff Hexes). If the active aspect of defense (8 monks) were the only thing needed to keep a team alive, then your argument would suffice. However, as it stands, 8 RANDOMLY designed monks (all bringing a mix of small prots and heals) would not hold out versus a full luxon assault.

Upier has been going on about the same shit for months now. Don't waste your time.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 19, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Random instanced PvP zones like this will always be a joke, having no control over the other 7+ players and what builds they use.

upier · Jun 20, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by itznitro

Pierson wins this thread.

Upier, you say that the kurzicks merely need to OFFER themselves as monks in order to provide the best chance of winning (by buffing their defense and getting rid of all the offensive players) However you disregard the fact that a team of 5+ monks will NOT necessarily be able to hold out until God's Vengeance completes...

It's one of the most common fundamentals of GvG and higher level play, and you are forgetting it. Defense consists of the ACTIVE role (monks) that you are focusing on, and also consists of the PASSIVE mitigating effects of various other professions (Blinds, Snares, Debuff Hexes). If the active aspect of defense (8 monks) were the only thing needed to keep a team alive, then your argument would suffice. However, as it stands, 8 RANDOMLY designed monks (all bringing a mix of small prots and heals) would not hold out versus a full luxon assault.

Since I have no high end PvP experience, does this still apply if:
1. a team does not need to defeat the other team, but can rather just wait it out
2. there is a wall between the teams enabling one team to decide who and WHEN is going to be in reach of the opposing team
3. if players automatically respawn with no penalty
4. when the Luxon team is also random

So if I understand you correctly, in the current state of the game - 8 random monks should be unable to keep a designated tank up for some 10 minutes against a random team?

Airstu · Jun 20, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Upier has been going on about the same stuff for months now. Don't waste your time

Theres a reason he is - FA is a joke. Z rewards have made it even more so. Join Kurzick, play a monk, get free rewards. I even go afk for like the first 5 min, then just camp at Gunther and heal away. It makes ab seem pro in comparison.

itznitro · Jun 21, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if I understand you correctly, in the current state of the game - 8 random monks should be unable to keep a designated tank up for some 10 minutes against a random team?

In all honesty, a team of 8 random kurzick monks in Aspy would not be the end-all, game-unbalancing force that you think it is. If there is no one to kill the incoming turtles and luxons (no matter how bad their random builds are) A ten minute fight in the green gate would ultimately end up as a Luxon victory.

refer · Jun 21, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

Now when I have one or two real monks/rits on my team (that recognize the NPCs are important), we generally win, but that isn't happening nearly as often as this thread would imply, at least not for me.

That's true for both sides! Healing NPCs (besides the main ones, ie Turtle + Gunther) in FA is very underestimated IMO. I usually come across full offensive teams.

upier · Jun 21, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by itznitro

In all honesty, a team of 8 random kurzick monks in Aspy would not be the end-all, game-unbalancing force that you think it is. If there is no one to kill the incoming turtles and luxons (no matter how bad their random builds are) A ten minute fight in the green gate would ultimately end up as a Luxon victory.

Reminds me of the time when I played a bonder on the Kurzick side and was able to single-handedly stop the Luxon army at the green gate.
The only thing that has changed since then is that Luxons now have ench removal and that a team of 8 Kurzick monks could chain Aegis and bury it under a ton of other enches.

Giga_Gaia · Jun 22, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

I can't believe you're still arguing about this. I think you should try actually playing the arena. You will see that even after the RoJ fix, it's still extremely easy to win as a luxon. Seems like luxon players are finally starting to realize that melee are terrible, and many of my matches on lux side I see more ele's and nec's and monks now. Also I'm starting to see some real imbalance where teams of less than 2 descent healers (on kurz) aren't enough to save the day anymore. I know, because I'm always either healing on kurz or RoJ-ing on lux.

itznitro · Jun 22, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Reminds me of the time when I played a bonder on the Kurzick side and was able to single-handedly stop the Luxon army at the green gate.
The only thing that has changed since then is that Luxons now have ench removal and that a team of 8 Kurzick monks could chain Aegis and bury it under a ton of other enches.

Ohh but wait! I thought we were assuming ideal conditions? (Something you love to repeat ever so fondly) Because if we are in fact using the ideal conditions, and saying that GOOD players will enter with the build that gives them the best suited chance for winning --> then there would be 8 kurzick monks with exactly the same skill bar. In this random, ideal play you speak of, there would not be enough enchants to bury on a gate guard in order to keep him alive, since the monks would be running the ideal hybrid monk build with a few splash heals and prots.

p.s. stop giving examples from a time when Aspy was completely different, it doesn't help your argument. What would help you, on the other hand, is entering aspy right now, and checking out the balance for yourself.

upier · Jun 22, 2009, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by itznitro

Ohh but wait! I thought we were assuming ideal conditions? (Something you love to repeat ever so fondly) Because if we are in fact using the ideal conditions, and saying that GOOD players will enter with the build that gives them the best suited chance for winning --> then there would be 8 kurzick monks with exactly the same skill bar. In this random, ideal play you speak of, there would not be enough enchants to bury on a gate guard in order to keep him alive, since the monks would be running the ideal hybrid monk build with a few splash heals and prots.

p.s. stop giving examples from a time when Aspy was completely different, it doesn't help your argument. What would help you, on the other hand, is entering aspy right now, and checking out the balance for yourself.

This means chaining Aegis and being able to keeping it up indefinitely.
I did mention that I pretty much consider a few skills to be basic, stuff like a few heals, hex removal, Aegis, corpse denial and after that you still have some room to fill up up with random skills. With the random skills being stuff like PS, SB, Guardian, Healing Breeze if you aren't that good, ... so unless you get REALLY unlucky you'll get about 2ish skills that will differ from one monk to another.

Which would kinda mean Luxon players would need to bring Expunge. And that locks everyone on the Luxon side into assassin primary or secondary.
Fun times!

(And the reason why I brought up my old bonder was to show that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by itznitro

(no matter how bad their random builds are) A ten minute fight in the green gate would ultimately end up as a Luxon victory.

is simply false.)

EDIT:
Gosh, like always, the point of this is to give the Luxon a better chance. So if the problem is that Luxons can not win because they run shitty builds, I would love to hear the build that would enable them to actually win.
I mean, either this thing is broken and it needs to be fixed, or we'll learn something, shut up and just have to play better.

Given that - I was looking into Blood. You know that a NPC will tank you, which means low HP and touch range. And life stealing goes through prots. So 8 blood suckers would trash all npcs, outside of Gunther and the Juggy, in one shot.
If you run a necro touchy - you'd be out of energy after one cycle of VTouch and UFeast. But you have an open secondary and a few open slots. A ranger touchy on the other hand - deals less damage, but can keep it up. Lees option to fill out the remaining bar though.
The problem?
Vital Blessing, Symbiosis, Vital Weapon. This would force relying on luck onto the Kurzick players since you can't bring everything on one guy - but I am guessing they still wouldn't get punished hard enough for running pretty much identical bars.